HTML tags for POEM and MUSIC LYRICS

# GevCbmlGM (16 days ago)

Is there any recommend standard HTML tags for POEM and MUSIC LYRICS?

I searched and did not see anyone talk about it. But I see different creative way people come up for POEM / STANZA / LINE

1.

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <BR>

2.

<UL> <P> <BR>

3.

<DIV> <DL> <DD>

4.

<PRE> then text with line brakes and proportional font using CSS styling.

I wish it to be standardized, so if no recommendation exist, I suggest following tags.

<POEM> - With left/right intend from margin, and zero top/bottom

margin (almost BLOCKQUOTE).

<STANZA> - With top/bottom margin, but zero left/right margin (similar to <P> ).

<L> this is for LINE, single character tag name to replace use of BR.

Content in<L> tag should not word wrap, instead it should continue

right side like contents in <PRE> tag.

We also need a set of tags for MUSIC LYRICS, with VERSE, CHORUS, tag/attribute to mark repetition. As well as other tags/attributes which music community thinks will be needed.

Cheers Gev C

[bijugc]

(further research en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure )

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# Tab Atkins Jr. (14 days ago)

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 8:59 AM, GevCbmlGM <bijumaillist at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

Is there any recommend standard HTML tags for POEM and MUSIC LYRICS?

I searched and did not see anyone talk about it. But I see different creative way people come up for POEM / STANZA / LINE

1.

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <BR>

2.

<UL> <P> <BR>

3.

<DIV> <DL> <DD>

4.

<PRE> then text with line brakes and proportional font using CSS styling.

I wish it to be standardized, so if no recommendation exist, I suggest following tags.

<POEM> - With left/right intend from margin, and zero top/bottom margin (almost BLOCKQUOTE).

<STANZA> - With top/bottom margin, but zero left/right margin (similar to <P> ).

<L> this is for LINE, single character tag name to replace use of BR. Content in<L> tag should not word wrap, instead it should continue right side like contents in <PRE> tag.

We also need a set of tags for MUSIC LYRICS, with VERSE, CHORUS, tag/attribute to mark repetition. As well as other tags/attributes which music community thinks will be needed.

Poems and lyrics are, generally, just text that has significant line-breaks. Thus, <p> and <br> are the correct markup for them.

For poetry that plays around with spacing and alignment (and thus has significant whitespace), <pre> is the correct markup for it.

To add anything new to support these, head over to whatwg.org/faq#adding-new-features and run thru the

questionaire there; the bar for new additions to HTML is relatively high. In particular, merely wanting to encode more semantics into a document is often not worthwhile - in general, semantics are only useful insofar as they help machines understand the document (so they can help humans more effectively, such as screenreaders, search engine spiders, etc.). You'll have to answer to why this level of additional semantics for poetry is valuable in this way, and how it improves over the current situation in tools that actually exist (or make a very convincing argument that the current lack of semantics prevents a useful tool from existing, and it's likely that the tool will develop on its own after this is added).

~TJ

# Christoph Päper (21 hours ago)

"Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage at gmail.com>: On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 8:59 AM, GevCbmlGM <bijumaillist at gmail.com> wrote: >

Is there any recommend standard HTML tags for POEM and MUSIC LYRICS?

Poems and lyrics are, generally, just text that has significant line-breaks. Thus, <p> and are the correct markup for them.

As with <svg> and <math>, HTML could also add <music> or something similar to embed MusicXML. Lyrics are a subset of musical notation and poems are, arguably, a special kind of lyrics (or the other way around).

w3c/musicxml, www.w3.org/community/music-notation, www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/5e/MusicXML_W3C_Plenary_2014.pdf, www.musicxml.com/tutorial/the-midi-compatible-part/lyrics

# Jirka Kosek (19 hours ago)

On 11.12.2017 11:39, Christoph Päper wrote:

As with <svg> and <math>, HTML could also add <music> or something similar to embed MusicXML. Lyrics are a subset of musical notation and poems are, arguably, a special kind of lyrics (or the other way around).

This would require change to HTML parsing rules which ideally shoudn't ever happen again.

Easier approach is to use XHTML syntax and simply embedded fragment of specific XML vocabulary. It's pity that extensibility has been largely thrown away when HTML5 was designed.

BTW, MusicXML is really not appropriate for poems. There is existing markup for poems in TEI: teibyexample.org/modules/TBED04v00.htm

        Jirka
# Michael A. Peters (17 hours ago)

On 12/11/2017 04:30 AM, Jirka Kosek wrote:

On 11.12.2017 11:39, Christoph Päper wrote:

As with <svg> and <math>, HTML could also add <music> or something similar to embed MusicXML. Lyrics are a subset of musical notation and poems are, arguably, a special kind of lyrics (or the other way around).

This would require change to HTML parsing rules which ideally shoudn't ever happen again.

Easier approach is to use XHTML syntax and simply embedded fragment of specific XML vocabulary. It's pity that extensibility has been largely thrown away when HTML5 was designed.

I always serve my pages as application/xhtml+xml except when an honest bot asks for the page (Twitter, some accessibility testers, Google Page Speed, all have trouble with real XML - often either screwing up with the self-closing script tags or parsing it correctly as XML but adding junk after the closing tag somewhere in their processing)

I've not tried as I don't think browsers would know what to do, but one should be able to add other XML namespaces to html5 served as proper XML, no?

That's how we had to to MathML circa 2000 before HTML5 (and then if I recall only Mozilla knew what to do with the MathML) - the same thing should work if browsers knew what to do with MusicXML or whatever.

# Brian Kardell (16 hours ago)

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Michael A. Peters <mpeters at domblogger.net>

wrote:

On 12/11/2017 04:30 AM, Jirka Kosek wrote:

On 11.12.2017 11:39, Christoph Päper wrote:

As with <svg> and <math>, HTML could also add <music> or something similar to embed MusicXML. Lyrics are a subset of musical notation and poems are, arguably, a special kind of lyrics (or the other way around).

This would require change to HTML parsing rules which ideally shoudn't ever happen again.

Easier approach is to use XHTML syntax and simply embedded fragment of specific XML vocabulary. It's pity that extensibility has been largely thrown away when HTML5 was designed.

I always serve my pages as application/xhtml+xml except when an honest bot asks for the page (Twitter, some accessibility testers, Google Page Speed, all have trouble with real XML - often either screwing up with the self-closing script tags or parsing it correctly as XML but adding junk after the closing tag somewhere in their processing)

I've not tried as I don't think browsers would know what to do, but one should be able to add other XML namespaces to html5 served as proper XML, no?

That's how we had to to MathML circa 2000 before HTML5 (and then if I recall only Mozilla knew what to do with the MathML) - the same thing should work if browsers knew what to do with MusicXML or whatever.

Sorry, I've read through a bunch of stuff mentioned here trying to not ask a question with an obvious answer, but I'm not finding it so: Why exactly would this need parser change? Is there a reason that you could you not float custom elements that did/meant precisely what you want to help prove that whatever particular formulation you've come up with is the set that should be used/integrated into an HTML standard?

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