i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

# Richard Ishida (2 years ago)

3.9 Speech Synthesis: the speak-as descriptor dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-speak-as

I guess that 'in the document language' actually means in the language most recently declared for the text where the counter appears, which may not be the same as that declared for the document as a whole.

if that is indeed what is meant, i such we make an editorial change to replace 'in the document language' with something more precise.

(btw, bullets is the only value that doesn't say 'in the document language", but i think it or its replacement is equally applicable here. If the list is in French, the French word for the UA defined phrase needs to be used.)

ri

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# Martin J. Dürst (2 years ago)

On 2015/09/25 02:03, Richard Ishida wrote:

3.9 Speech Synthesis: the speak-as descriptor dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-speak-as

I guess that 'in the document language' actually means in the language most recently declared

That sounds like tag soup parsing. What we want to say is that it's the language that applies to the element in question.

A simple example of what I mean:

<ol lang='en'> <li>First</li> <li lang='fr'>Second</li> <li>Third</li> </ol>

If this is rendered as:

  1. First
  2. Second
  3. Third

and the numbers are spoken as numbers, then I'd expect this to be read:

'one' First 'deux' Second 'three' Third

and not:

'one' First 'deux' Second 'trois' Third

which would be what "the language most recently declared" would imply.

Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may have to be made?

Regards, Martin.

# Richard Ishida (2 years ago)

On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

A simple example of what I mean:

<ol lang='en'> <li>First</li> <li lang='fr'>Second</li> <li>Third</li> </ol>

If this is rendered as:

  1. First
  2. Second
  3. Third

and the numbers are spoken as numbers, then I'd expect this to be read:

'one' First 'deux' Second 'three' Third

and not:

'one' First 'deux' Second 'trois' Third

which would be what "the language most recently declared" would imply.

Martin,

i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the list item.

In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document, but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic context may be determined by language information at the sub-document level.

I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.

Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may have to be made?

I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?

ri

# Martin J. Dürst (2 years ago)

Hello Richard,

On 2015/09/25 15:00, Richard Ishida wrote:

i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the list item.

In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document, but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic context may be determined by language information at the sub-document level.

That seems to be a very good point.

I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.

Then let's clearly say that the language used for pronouncing the list markers/bullets/numbers is the language that applies to the overall list. "the language most recently declared" still is wrong, and that was my main point.

On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may have to be made?

I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?

For those languages where it's always cardinal or always ordinal, that's going to be fine. But I suspect that there are languages where that's not so clear-cut.

In particular, I'm not sure whether I'd use cardinal or ordinal in German; my gut feeling is that it would depend on the nature of the list. Actually thinking about it, I get a similar feeling for English, but I'm not native, so I don't want to attach too much to that.

But let's just look at two examples:

Example 1:

There are three things to remember when leaving the room:

  1. Close the windows
  2. Switch off air conditioning
  3. Switch off the light

Example 2:

Recipe for a cake (very simple):

  1. Stir the butter until soft
  2. Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter
  3. Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color
  4. Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed

I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2, especially in there respective German equivalents. The reason is that in example 1, we are just counting the items; their order isn't particularly relevant. But in example 2, the order is very relevant.

Anyway, at the moment, it's just a gut feeling, and we might need more examples and more languages to get a better picture.

Regards, Martin.

# Sebastian Zartner (2 years ago)

On 25 September 2015 at 08:51, Martin J. Dürst duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp wrote: >

Hello Richard,

On 2015/09/25 15:00, Richard Ishida wrote:

i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the list item.

In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document, but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic context may be determined by language information at the sub-document level.

That seems to be a very good point.

I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.

Then let's clearly say that the language used for pronouncing the list markers/bullets/numbers is the language that applies to the overall list. "the language most recently declared" still is wrong, and that was my main point.

On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may have to be made?

I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?

For those languages where it's always cardinal or always ordinal, that's going to be fine. But I suspect that there are languages where that's not so clear-cut.

In particular, I'm not sure whether I'd use cardinal or ordinal in German; my gut feeling is that it would depend on the nature of the list. Actually thinking about it, I get a similar feeling for English, but I'm not native, so I don't want to attach too much to that.

But let's just look at two examples:

Example 1:

There are three things to remember when leaving the room:

  1. Close the windows
  2. Switch off air conditioning
  3. Switch off the light

Example 2:

Recipe for a cake (very simple):

  1. Stir the butter until soft
  2. Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter
  3. Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color
  4. Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed

I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2, especially in there respective German equivalents. The reason is that in example 1, we are just counting the items; their order isn't particularly relevant. But in example 2, the order is very relevant.

When you read those two lists in German, you always read them ordinally (i.e. 'erstens', 'zweitens', 'drittens', 'viertens'). And I assume it is similar in other languages. If you want them to be read cardinal, you explicitly need to say so by writing them without the dot:

1 Close the windows 2 Switch off air conditioning 3 Switch off the light

Or, if the order is not important, it may be an unordered list.

Sebastian

# John Cowan (2 years ago)

Martin J. Dürst scripsit:

I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2, especially in there respective German equivalents.

I'm wondering if the fact that "1." in running text is the standard way of writing "erste" is influencing you. How about this?

Recipe for a cake (very simple): (1) Stir the butter until soft (2) Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter (3) Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color (4) Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed

# John Cowan (2 years ago)

Sebastian Zartner scripsit:

When you read those two lists in German, you always read them ordinally (i.e. 'erstens', 'zweitens', 'drittens', 'viertens'). And I assume it is similar in other languages.

Not at all. In English it is normal to read numbered lists with cardinals.

# fantasai (a day ago)

On 09/24/2015 01:03 PM, Richard Ishida wrote:

3.9 Speech Synthesis: the speak-as descriptor dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-speak-as

I guess that 'in the document language' actually means in the language most recently declared for the text where the counter appears, which may not be the same as that declared for the document as a whole.

if that is indeed what is meant, i such we make an editorial change to replace 'in the document language' with something more precise.

(btw, bullets is the only value that doesn't say 'in the document language", but i think it or its replacement is equally applicable here. If the list is in French, the French word for the UA defined phrase needs to be used.)

Hi Richard, The CSSWG discussed this issue and concluded that the counter style should indeed be in the content language of the element. www.w3.org/TR/css-text-3/#content-language, lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Aug/0034.html We have thus replaced those instances of “document language” with “content language”. Please let us know if this resolves the issue.

Thanks~ ~fantasai

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